When Batman falls, who will rise? The series premiere of Gotham Knights is Tuesday, March 14th on The CW.


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I think it's fair to say journalist Mariana van Zeller is a bit of a badass.

She began her journalism career in her native Portugal and moved to the US to attend Columbia University’s Graduate School of Journalism. And over the past decade, she's reported a string of award-winning reports that seek to tell the stories in the shadows of our society. 

Her 2016 investigation “Death by Fentanyl,” which tracked the pharmaceutical and clandestine sources of the deadly opioid was honored with a DuPont Award. For her report “Rape on the Reservation,” which examined the increased incidence of rape and sexual violence on American Indian reservations, she received the Livingston Award for Young Journalists. And her documentary on prescription drug abuse and pill trafficking, “The OxyContin Express,” received a Peabody Award, a Television Academy Honor, and an Emmy nomination.

She also hosts the NatGeo series Trafficked, where she reports on the inner workings of the multi-trillion-dollar black market economy.

The series returns for a third season on Wednesday, January 18th, 2023, and ahead of the premiere, I sat down with van Zeller to discuss the upcoming season and the complexities and reach of the global black market economy.
The interview has been lightly edited for clarity.

Q: It strikes me that Trafficked is really about showing people the world isn't as comfortable and as safe as they think it is.

Mariana van Zeller: I think most people don't know. But these black and gray markets actually make up for almost half of the world's economy. And yet we know nothing about them. There's all these networks and shows out there devoted to exploring the ups and downs of the legal economy. And yet, these black and gray markets are completely unexplored, and they have a real impact on our lives. Whether we're talking about scams or drugs, or guns, or cyber piracy, or crypto, these underground worlds actually are prevalent. They're all around us. And they have an impact on our lives. Yet we know so little about them. So that was the intent of the show.

So I thought, let's devote a whole show to covering this. On an internationally well-recognized brand and trusted brand like National Geographic. Where we really go deep and gain this unusual and rare access into these underworlds.

Q: You obviously had a lot of knowledge about the black market economy going into the show.  But how long did it take you doing this before you started realizing, "Wow, there's a lot of unexpected stuff going on? Even I had no clue about what was happening out there?"

Mariana van Zeller: It happens in every episode we do. Every time I go in the field, I'm shocked just not only by how prevalent these markets are but how they're happening right in our backyard.

Some of the episodes we did this season were actually filmed just 10-15 minutes from where we are right now (Pasadena, Calif.). We found a gun ghost gun trafficking operation. The making of these ghost guns, these unlicensed unregulated guns that are being discovered more and more in crime scenes across America, we found these guys. They're part of a gang that was part of the Sinaloa Cartel. They were assembling this massive arsenal of guns that they were making and selling. We saw them being sold that same night.

So I think I am like most people in that I am often shocked. I have a completely different view of the world these days, even in my own city where I drive around. I'm like "there was that MDMA operation there,  I found the gun operation over there."

Q: How does that not ruin your approach to life? Or change it in a negative way?

Mariana van Zeller: It's a very good question. I think it makes me more aware. And I do want viewers to know what impacts these black markets have and how close to home they are. But I think most importantly, I think the big message that I want from Trafficked is to give our viewers the realization that these people that we consider the bad guys, the traffickers, the outlaws or criminals or smugglers, they are a lot more like us. And that's an uncomfortable truth.

Their mothers, their fathers, their neighbors, they are all people with goals and dreams and aspirations much like us. But the vast majority of times - not always - but the vast majority of times they do these things because of the lack of opportunity and because of the inequality that exists in the world. And these people fall into these legs of crime.

And I think that gives me in some unique way, actually a very positive perspective of the world. To have the realization that no matter how far you go into the edges of our society. No matter how far we travel, we can still find people that are relatable and redeemable. And I think is a really important message for the show.



Q: In the past, I have interviewed some seriously bad people - murderers. And these people have this ability to just separate the good from the bad they do. In many situations, they can be a really good person. But they've also done these horrible things and to them, it's almost like a different person did it. And it seems like that's the way they live with it. 

Mariana van Zeller: Yeah, absolutely. And I think one of the things we do in the show, too, is we will give you access, and we will show you the people who are pulling the strings behind these black markets. And who often are involved in some very horrific events and responsible for a lot of suffering. But then we also will show you the victims so that you understand the impact of those actions. And I will never shy away from asking the people that I'm meeting, even if it's the huge boss of a cartel or whoever that might be, "Do you realize what the implications of what you're doing?"

That's one of my top questions always: "Do you realize the suffering you've caused? Do you realize that by scamming this old American out of all their life savings what that means? And how people are committing suicide because of some of the things you've done? Or do you realize that by being involved in the drug trade, you're responsible for an enormous amount of violence and death and destruction and suffering?"

I think being able to have the opportunity to ask these questions is an enormous privilege and an important message to show people too. Because without understanding the motivations, we will never be able to prevent these situations from existing.

Q: It feels like a lot of this is driven by ego. They talk to you because of ego. I suspect a lot of times when they are committing crimes they are thinking while they're doing it, "I'm getting away with this. I'm a badass." It's funny what motivates humans to do things that might not be in their best interests.

Mariana van Zeller: You know, when people ask us why people agree to talk to us, I always say there are three main reasons. One is wanting to boast about what they do. These are some of the best of what they do in the world. And sometimes not even their families know they do what they do. So we give them an opportunity - even behind a mask with a changed voice - to sort of really boast and show off how good they are at their trade.

Then there's a real level of impunity in a lot of the places of the world we travel, for example, in Sinaloa, and Mexico. These are people who have been operating almost openly for decades, and there is no sort of downside to operating in their trade. So they also don't see a downside in talking to well-known, recognized brand like National Geographic.

And then I think, third, the most important reason is this very human characteristic that we all have of wanting to be understood. And we give them that opportunity. I always tell everybody, I'm not here to judge you. I'm here to understand why you do what you do. And I think that level of empathy goes a long, long way. Because we give them the chance to tell us why they do it. And a lot of times, these are not people who were born wanting to be criminals. A lot of times, they're not even bad people. I think it's an easier portrayal of the world if we see "them versus us." Right? And I think unfortunately that more and more, we are falling into that framing. But I think the moment we realize that the way the world has a lot more colors than just black and white, the sooner we'll start understanding it better.

Q: There is a very human tendency to get lost in the subject of whatever you are focusing on at the moment. It's like the old trope of the stand-up comedian who does a lot of political jokes and before you know it he's an activist and ranting about his pet injustices. It's easy to get caught up in the emotion. Do you ever feel that pull? Is there a temptation to see something happening and think "I wonder if I could change this," or "why doesn't the government or society make this better?"

Mariana van Zeller: Oh, always. I think one of the things we do with the show is we try to cover the solutions as well. We try to understand by talking to experts, by talking to law enforcement, and to the victims to try to understand what could have been done, or what can be done in the future to prevent this from happening. The solutions are always very important, too. But it is my job as a journalist to ask questions and shine a spotlight on these on these issues.



Q: Have you ever been scared doing one of these episodes?

Mariana van Zeller: Yes, many times. There are many, many moments that I call the uncomfortable moments, where we sort of have to reassess whether we're doing this the safest way we can. Obviously, there's no story out there that's worth a life. We take security very seriously. But I've been doing this for almost 20 years, I think experience counts, and matters. And we do a lot of training and a lot of planning before we even go to the field. So we don't do this without thinking or planning.

Q: Obviously as a journalist, this is exciting, fulfilling work. You're doing what you were meant to do. But what is the psychic toll of dealing with these stories all of the time? At some point this would wear anyone down and I wonder if it ever happens to you?

Mariana van Zeller: Sometimes. There are a lot of moments where it's harder to find the lighter side of things.  But I also see it as an enormous privilege that I have been able to enter these worlds and meet people that I would never have the opportunity to know otherwise. And then also being able to share this with people that watch Trafficked, that's pretty special. So I never let being tired or stressed or frustrated or sad, get in the way of how lucky I know I am. And the privilege that I have to be able to tell these stories, and also place myself in people's shoes.

It might be hard for me to deal with something for a half hour, an hour while I'm interviewing this person. But imagine what it's like for the person who's actually having to live this day to day.

Q: What do you do when you just need to get away? Is there something that you use as your mental palate cleanser?

Mariana van Zeller:
I run and I drink a lot of wine.

Q: Well. hopefully not at the same time.

Mariana van Zeller: (laughing). No. I jog almost every day. I make it a priority. And I also really do enjoy my glass of wine at the end of the day.

Q: Because you have been doing this show for awhile, do you catch yourself looking back and thinking "oh, I wish I could change that or ask that question a different way?

Mariana van Zeller: That's one of the things about black markets is that they're continuously evolving, right? So for example, the opioid crisis. I've been covering the opioid crisis for almost 15 years, and I was there at the beginning, when oxycontin was started to be distributed, and people didn't even know what oxycontin was. I was there when heroin epidemic came on the backs of Oxycontin.

And then with Fentanyl, I remember pitching the story to my boss. And at the time, I was working on another channel. And he was like Fentanyl, what's that? Nobody knows that drug. And I told him, I know this is going to be big. So seeing the evolution of these trades, and knowing what I know, what have I done differently? That always happens. But to be honest, I actually don't love watching my own stories. Because then I'm caught in that cycle. "I should have said that this way. Or we should have done this differently." And there's only so much that you can do at the time.

Q: I think that's a very human response. I am always walking away from an interview thinking "why didn't I ask this question? I am such a moron!"

Mariana van Zeller: You listen to it again and think "this was such an obvious follow-up to this answer." And I didn't ask it.



Q: This is a bit of a change-up. But I'm curious about how you view places such as Mexico, where the crime and the cartels just seem to be so deeply ingrained in the society?

Mariana van Zeller: It's true that's the case, but it's about the money that is there to be made. And it's not just Mexico.

Actually, one of the very interesting episodes we did this season was about MDMA, Ecstasy. And it started because I got an email from my son's middle school, warning parents against the dangers of Ecstasy. Because there had been a middle schooler or at a high school close by that had overdosed from an Ecstasy pill that was laced with fentanyl. And I realized I've never done a story on this one particular drug considered the love drug, the party drug. So we started investigating it. And the journey took us to the Netherlands, which is a center for MDMA around the world.

And the Netherlands - in the heart of Europe - has become what many call a Narco state. It's where their crime journalists - who do very much the kind of same reporting that I do - are being killed on the streets for covering drug trafficking. Or a star witness gets killed and the lawyers representing that witness are killed on the streets as well.

So I think  sometimes we tend to point the finger at our southern neighbor. But I do think that we should instead strive to understand what can be done, the drug war, the money that is being spent on the drug war is not working. There are a lot of people making a lot of money. There are a lot of interests, financial, and economic interests behind the design, the drug drugs, and what can we do differently, because what we're doing right now is not working.

Q: I think we don't talk enough about the moral component of crime and of black markets. If you're at home doing cocaine or bragging about the great deal you got on your knock-off designer goods while also complaining about crime, then you're really not making the connection between the two. These markets exist because people are willing to buy what they are selling. And there is a moral cost to those decisions.

Mariana van Zeller: I don't think that most people make that connection. I believe it's important for people to where the things they are using and buying come from and at what cost.

You know, I'm not one to judge. But I do think that if you are buying certain things, or consuming certain things, or drugs, that it is important to understand. And that's what I hope to show will bring you to. To show you that these are the hands that this product passes through. These are the lives it's affecting. And whether you change your habits or you don't at least I think there's a level of awareness that you should have.

Q: To a certain extent, the moral disconnect that drives criminals to separate the bad is the same thing that allows good people to ignore the consequences connected with what they buy. It's like," I'm not going to think about that because I couldn't do cocaine if I was thinking about where it was coming from and the moral cost."

Mariana van Zeller: Absolutely. All of us do that. I think there's a level of disconnection that we have. We don't want to know how it affects us.



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Disney+ debuted the new trailer for the upcoming Season 3 of Star Wars: The Mandalorian during halftime of Monday night's NFL Super Wild Card matchup between the Dallas Cowboys and Tampa Bay Buccaneers, simulcast on ABC, ESPN and ESPN+.

New key art was also released for the third season of the critically acclaimed, original, live-action series from Lucasfilm, streaming exclusively on Disney+ starting March 1.

The journeys of the Mandalorian through the Star Wars galaxy continue. Once a lone bounty hunter, Din Djarin has reunited with Grogu. Meanwhile, the New Republic struggles to lead the galaxy away from its dark history. The Mandalorian will cross paths with old allies and make new enemies as he and Grogu continue their journey together.

The series stars Pedro Pascal, Katee Sackhoff, Carl Weathers, Amy Sedaris, Emily Swallow and Giancarlo Esposito. 

The directors of the eight-episode Season 3 include Rick Famuyiwa, Rachel Morrison, Lee Isaac Chung, Carl Weathers, Peter Ramsey and Bryce Dallas Howard.

Jon Favreau is the showrunner/head writer and serves as an executive producer along with Dave Filoni, Rick Famuyiwa, Kathleen Kennedy and Colin Wilson. Karen Gilchrist and Carrie Beck are co-executive producers.

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